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Karsten Pultz's avatar

Irreducible complexity and Behe's work became central in my conversion from evolutionist to ID-man. Having rebuilt and modified engines for my wife's racing car, I immediately understood the concept of IC whcih in the world of engineering is the bleed'n obvious. Only in a mind game can evolution work, - in the real world it´s pure insanity to assume you can build complex functional systems gradually. But Darwin's moronic theory is still mainstream and it's frustrating to fight it.

The Deuce's avatar

Hi Dr. Dembski. I made this comment in another thread a couple days ago, but I think it's more apt for this one, so I'll copy it here:

One thing I've come to notice is that not only have Darwinists/materialists never given a coherent answer to the challenge of irreducible complexity, they've never given an answer that even really *addresses* the actual issue at hand. Their responses are always a change of subject that address a different issue.

All Darwinist answers to irreducibly complex systems boil down to the claim that the system and/or its parts had precursors that were performing different functions or no function, and got coopted somehow into the new system.

But that's not an explanation, it's just a truism. It goes without saying that if a given system with a given function is composed of multiple parts that have to all be present and working together in the right way to play their roles to realize that function, then prior to that system's existence any precursors to the system or its parts couldn't have been performing that same function, and so would've had to be performing a different function if any.

To the extent that such cooption/exaptation can be considered an answer to a challenge, it's an answer to "It's impossible for irreducibly complex systems to come into existence." But that's not the challenge that irreducible complexity poses. Obviously it's possible for irreducibly complex systems to come into existence, or else they wouldn't exist. Nobody disputes that. The problem that irreducible complexity poses is that it's not possible for irreducibly complex systems to come into existence *unintentionally*, and that's the part that Darwinists never address, or really even try to.

You can see that in, for instance, Ken Miller's "reverse mousetrap" illustration, where he has a stripped-down mousetrap serving as a tie clip. Of course, that's a result of him intentionally thinking "What could I possibly use a stripped-down mousetrap for?" until he came up with something. In reality a stripped-down mousetrap is wildly impractical as a tie clip, and more to the point, no normally-occurring tie clip would be useful as a mousetrap just by adding some parts to it, much less by *accidentally* adding some parts to it, precisely because it wasn't made for that.

Now, it is true that the evolution of human technology often works by a "cooption" of sorts. For instance, after the rotary motor was invented, it was eventually coopted and modified to make automobiles. But this is a *conceptual* evolution. It was the *idea* of a rotary motor that was coopted to make the automobile. A human being saw some rotary motors and thought "I could use something conceptually similar to that, appropriately modified and combined with wheels and other parts, to build a convenient self-propelled transportation device that could replace horse and buggies."

The actual original rotary motor invented by humans would've been quite useless in an automobile, and no amount of modification would've changed that enough to make it cooptable for that purpose. Now, it is true that nowadays we do have off-the-shelf parts (screws, nails, sheet metal in standardized sizes, various types of motors, etc) that are reusable in a variety of applications as they are, but that too is a result of *conceptual* evolution. In fact, these are an example of modular design, an especially forward-thinking type of conceptual thought that designs components specifically to be physically useful in a wide variety of *future* applications. Of course, actually using them in any such application requires further conceptual cooption along with the physical cooption.

Naturalistic evolution could never in principle work like that, because naturalistic "evolution" is supposed to be nothing more than the acting out of blind and mechanistic causes, and blind and mechanistic causes by definition do not have concepts (that's what "blind" and "mechanistic" mean).

Darwinists argue this way because, as I've pointed out before, all Darwinian explanation implicitly depends on reifying "natural selection" or "evolution" as a literal intelligent agent with a mind, purposes, and goals. Every Darwinian explanation falls apart when you take away that assumption, and in fact their entire mode of explanation is rendered incoherent if "natural selection" is consistently taken to be the mindless physical processes they claim it is rather than the intelligent designer their explanations actually invoke it as. One might say that they are ID theorists in cheap tuxedos.

As such, when challenged to explain something like irreducible complexity, they don't really fully comprehend that their challenge is to explain it in purely blind and naturalistic terms completely devoid of mind with all that entails. They subconsciously swap it out for the much less obviously impossible challenge of answering how "natural selection" conceived as an intelligent agent with lots of time on his hands could go about it.

The reason they do this is the same reason why if I ask you to visualize a square circle, you will necessarily visualize *either* a square *or* a circle instead: Their position is actually incoherent, and when the mind tries to visualize or conceive of something incoherent, it must by necessity swap it out for something coherent that can actually be conceived. This process that can cause a philosophically unreflective person to simply conflate the incoherent idea they were trying to conceive with the coherent idea they conceived in its place instead of realizing that it's incoherent.

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